Fw: Re: [Car-diagnose] Re: Fw: Thanks to all.

-------Original Message-------

From: Frank
Date: vrijdag 20 februari 2004 6:44:00
To: Car-diagnose@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Car-diagnose] Re: Fw: Thanks to all.

I think there has been a lot of reaction on this topic, the ones making
money out of the"hacking" are defending themselves and the others are
telling I'm right.
In hacking there is no "gray"-zone!!!
You legally own the rights for diagnose software (car-specific) if you
bought the tool from the manufacturer (for VAG-group for example this can be
VAG itself or Bosch) or you have an agreement with one of those companies.
If you have the original tools, you may make a copy of it for your own use.
You're free to let someone else use this tools, but never sell copies.
(One of my friends is a lawyer, he did some research on this matter for me)
So, this is the legal way, all the rest is totally unlegal!!!
Reverse engineering is legal if you do this for your own purposes, but is
totally unlegal if you are selling the knowledge afterwards!
For example, I own Microsoft windows XP and find a way to copy it and to
crack" it, thats not illegal, I may even distribute the way I did (if I do
it for free) but the one who don't legally owns it may not use it!
So, Mr. Uwe, if your customers own a VAG-1552 they may use your software (if
you have given the software for free!).
Also, there is nothing unlegal about selling self designed hardware, as long
as this hardware isn't the same as used in machines that are "original".
For Mr. Uwe: there are keygenerators around for your software, it's exactly
as said: using your software with some of these keygenerators or buying the
software from you and using it is no more or less legal or unlegal!
So, next time if you start shouting to someone who asks for a copy of an SAE
spec,........, think about what you did! (If VAG one day finds out what you
have done and think that they are loosing money because of your "cheap"
diagnostic tool, they will close your business and claim a lot of money from
you!)
By the other way, your tool is "payable", I already used the free version,
(also an unlegal act, because I don't own an original VAG) and it's very
good! (In between, someone I know did the same and putted his knowledge on a
website where he even gives away a keygenerator for your software if either
one asks him for it by E-mail)
For the attack on my "not working for free": everyone must eat, thats right,
but repairing cars isn't unlegal, selling hacked software is!
If I can't repair a car without the use of a diagnostic tool, I have to go
to a collegue who owns one(or most times a certified dealer) and I have to
pay for it. (sometimes more then $99!!)
That cost must be repayed by the customer, what is logical.
No problem for me, I can go to the bank an loan the money I need to buy a
certified diagnostic tool and let my customers pay for it (what most dealers
do), thats the second solution. BUT....
If you are an independant repair shop, you have to try to make repairs
cheaper then at a certified dealer (otherwise no one comes to you), so why
not trying to make the diagnose-stuff myself (even knowing it's not legal)
and letting the customers save money on this?
As I said, I already used your software, even for customers, and I let them
pay for it (if you like to know how much: $2.5, thats not for the diagnose,
thats for the time I spend in using it)
So, exactly, I use unlegal stuff but I'm not making money out of it!
So, my time for this is over, just one thing: (if I'm right, because I wasn
t yet able to get it to work, I'm not familiar with Linux) something like
the program "Freediag" is fully legal because it uses only the "open" part
of the protocol! No one can blame the persons selling some kind of
diagnostic tools who are only accessing the "open" part of the protocol.
Neither can you blame those selling diagnostic stuff who paid for the rights
of using the specific protocol (I may copy music if I paid for the rights
and got the approval from the author). So, Uwe, do you own this rights?????
If not, if I was you, I would start contacting VAG and asking them if that
can be arranged, because right now, you're sitting on the edge of a high
mountain, VAG can blow you of when ever they wil!!!!
(By the way, a Belgian company sells diagnostic tools for VAG, BMW and MB,
Carsoft, they can mostly access cars older then 2 years, they payed for the
rights but they are totally unable to sell the tools for $99, because of
these expensive rights!)
After all this, I had a lot to read this morning, so I will get back after I
had time to read the replys more carefully, because it seems there is also
some more interesting stuff between the last topics.
Greetings to all the replyers and thanks for the help, as I see more people
think this way, so I'm going to take a look how to open a new forum (maybe
not through Yahoo) where things can be discussed in a "normal" way between
people with the same ideas if it comes to car-diagnose.

-------Original Message-------

From: Car-diagnose@yahoogroups.com
Date: donderdag 19 februari 2004 18:26:39
To: Car-diagnose@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Car-diagnose] Re: Fw: Thanks to all.

"Frank" <frank@b...> wrote:

> So if someone over here has got something usefull,
> why is there no sharing? Is it just for trying to make
> money out of it?
> Because I'm a car-mechanic with over 20 years of experience

Are you not just "trying to make money" being a car mechanic?
If you know how to fix cars, why do you not "share" and fix
every broken car that comes to your garage for free?
I know why. Because you have to eat and pay rent, and pay
for the tools you need to fix the cars.

We all have to eat. Some of us put bread on the table by
fixing cars. Others do it by writing (and trying to sell)
diagnostic software.

> I don't have the money for buying all that commercial stuff,

Some "commercial" software is available at very reasonable
prices. Mine for example. Many mechanics working at VW and
Audi dealerships here in the USA actually prefer my product
over the factory's tools! By making a free version which
does a lot of useful things and charging only $99 for the
full version, I believe I *am* sharing.

> where did they found all the info needed?? most specs are not
> only ISO or SAE, but specific to the manufacturer and how can
> you find that??? Buying the info from some corrupt engineer???)

I don't know how anyone else does it, but I don't buy anything
from corrupt engineers. I run a completely legal and honest
business. I started by buying an VAG-1552 and a protocol
analyzer. Since last year, I have a VAS-5052 as well.
These tools are available 100% legally in here the USA, but
of course you have to be willing to pay for them. I use the
protocol analyzer to watch what happens between the factory's
tools and the cars. Then I make my software act like the
factory's tools.

> So, I'm not a moderator on this forum, but this kind of
> members don't belong to a group called "OPEN"diag!!!!!!!!!

This group isn't called "Open Diag". It's called "Car-Diagnose".

-Uwe-

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Received on Thu Feb 19 21:47:07 2004